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#2601-04-2011 14:43:22

Re: @ Flounderbout

The first thing the HSE will do if they investigate will be to see if the paperwork is correct , Induction , Training , Risk assessments and method statements.

If the ladder work is not a every day occurance then a permit to work should have been issued where a risk assessment would be undertaken and signed for, THAT risk assessment should take into account the people doing the job are suitable and correctly trained.

#2701-04-2011 15:36:14

Re: @ Flounderbout

Icon - Post link Sancho wrote:

Icon - Post link Albannach wrote:

Anyway, the lad has nothing to worry about.  But in reality, he can't continue to work with that company; they'll just make his life hell until he eventually leaves.
This was my point on him making a moral judgement.  He may just want to walk away, although Henry's point on constructive dismissal kind of overrides that.  If I were him, though, I would start looking for another job now.

Ian's point on reportable incidents is an interesting one, in that the HSE won't turn up unless it's reported, so the company will probably try to avoid that by simply not reporting it on the grounds that no-one will ever find out.  If that's the (illegal) route they've chosen to go down, they would be better advised contacting the bloke who's in hospital and begging him not to sue them than they would be trying to bully this lad.
The problem for him is that it is one thing to talk about having a good claim (or even actually have a good claim), and another thing to bring it and go to all the hassle of dealing wiht the lawyers etc etc.  My own approach to litigation is that if I can afford to I will walk away.  I just don't need the aggravation.

On the other hand I appreciate that not everyone is lucky enough to be able just to walk away from a job without knowing what the future holds.  If he has good prospects of getting another job and this one doesn't mean that much to him, then yes walking may be an option regardless of any hypothetical or real recourse he has against the company.

But I assume from the poor guy's reaction that he badly needs this job and is very worried about losing it.  It rather depends what happens at the meeting I suppose.  If they ask him to lie in order to try and affect an actual or potential legal case against them then he has them by the short and curlies, and I would have thought an employment tribunal would be quite keen to write him a healhty cheque.

#2801-04-2011 15:41:39

Re: @ Flounderbout

Icon - Post link Bio Hazard wrote:

The first thing the HSE will do if they investigate will be to see if the paperwork is correct , Induction , Training , Risk assessments and method statements.

If the ladder work is not a every day occurance then a permit to work should have been issued where a risk assessment would be undertaken and signed for, THAT risk assessment should take into account the people doing the job are suitable and correctly trained.
I suppose that this case is an example of what can happen.   But I confess I am glad that I don't run a small business when you have to provide training and fill in risk assessments for anyone who needs to go up a bloody ladder...

#2901-04-2011 15:51:42

Re: @ Flounderbout

Icon - Post link flounderbout wrote:

Icon - Post link Bio Hazard wrote:

The first thing the HSE will do if they investigate will be to see if the paperwork is correct , Induction , Training , Risk assessments and method statements.

If the ladder work is not a every day occurance then a permit to work should have been issued where a risk assessment would be undertaken and signed for, THAT risk assessment should take into account the people doing the job are suitable and correctly trained.
I confess I am glad that I don't run a small business when you have to provide training and fill in risk assessments for anyone who needs to go up a bloody ladder...
Quite.  I kind of share Matt's view that if you fall off a ladder you did something wrong, hence it is your fault and nobody else is to blame. 

This doesn't quite square with the day-job of being a client on multi-million pound construction contracts and ultimately being responsible for every life on the site.  Thankfully, I can just about understand the difference between the law and my opinions.

#3001-04-2011 17:48:08

Re: @ Flounderbout

poor kid, everyones looking for a scapegoat these days, to much money involved.

#3101-04-2011 20:51:51

Re: @ Flounderbout

I had a ladder slide on me once.....Great fun....I had the forethought to alter my stance and ride it down the wall like a surfboard ..... I wanted another go, but the boss's face was white  lol  lol

Does it not depend on how long this youngster had been employed as to what his rights are?
I was under the impression that under 3 months in a job meant you had no right to unfair dismissal claims and could be disposed of easily?

#3201-04-2011 21:23:02

Re: @ Flounderbout

Icon - Post link meooo wrote:

I had a ladder slide on me once.....Great fun....I had the forethought to alter my stance and ride it down the wall like a surfboard ..... I wanted another go, but the boss's face was white  lol  lol

Does it not depend on how long this youngster had been employed as to what his rights are?
I was under the impression that under 3 months in a job meant you had no right to unfair dismissal claims and could be disposed of easily?
I think you are right that there is a minimum term of employment before you can bring unfair dismissal claims - and now you mention it I think it may be as long as a year (there was talk recently of raising it to two years in the papers). 

There are all sorts of other things that may vary his rights too - whether he is on probation, whether he has a contract and what the terms are, whether he has had any previous warnings etc etc.

#3301-04-2011 22:13:15

Re: @ Flounderbout

He's been there two years.

#3404-04-2011 14:46:39

Re: @ Flounderbout

The most recent post - an employers perspective. Correct?

"Been reading your thread with interest,I run a plastering company presently working on contract for Olympic venue, in Stratford, employing some 90 guys, percentage PAYE others subcontract gangs.
So my reply is from an employers point of view.
Re H&S, firstly if the person is an employee, then they should have undertaken a H&S course, this is also to be taken every 6 months, the employee is then given a certificate. If the person is a subcontractor then they must have a CSCS card, even before they are contracted., without they cannot be employed.
Re your accident, you state you were footing a ladder, I.e. Making sure that while the operative was working from same the ladder would not slip, ladders are permissible to work from providing care is taken. You don't give any height at which the ladder was resting on the extruding RSJ, why wasn't the ladder tied at the top to the RSJ, to prevent slipping.
It should be considered the operatives responsibility to make sure the work station is safe, not up to the employer to supervise, the working from a ladder.
Another point which I was astounded by is the fact that the operative who was working from the top of the ladder had the forethought to take a camera and actually take a photo looking down from the ladder., this to me shows lack of attention to the work he was carrying out.
If in the opinion of an operative the work situation is not safe, then contact should be made with the relevant person who is in control to make other arrangements. I.e. A cherry picker, or sometimes a tower scaffold., but it is up to the operative to make a decision.
Was the accident referred to the H&S inspectors so they could make an assessment., were suitable reports made to the boss of the company etc., did you fill in an accident report. If this accident was of a serious nature then the H&S should have been informed immediately, not as an after thought.
You state you have no written contract as to the terms of your employment. Why didn't you ask for one.
You say you have no bruising etc, I'm guessing the person who was more injured was the guy working at the top of the ladder.
As to an overall view of the situation from as I said an employers point of view.
Both of you may be considered at fault.
The operative working at the top of the ladder should have made it safe, I.e. By making sure the ladder was tied to the RSJ, yourself for not footing the ladder correctly., if you had been footing the ladder it should not have slipped, this is backed up by the operative working from the top actually taking a photo.
For you to make a recording of any conversation without informing the other party of your intentions is not admissible evidence, and would be disregarded in any future discussions.
As re your being asked to resign or anything similar, this is not appropriate also not necessary. But from an employers point of view, I would certainly issue written warnings.
It is an employees responsibility to make sure that any ladder or platform etc is used in an appropriate manner.
I certainly take all site safety in a most serious manner, I have guys who work from stilts, to gain access to ceilings etc, it is up to them to make sure their equipment and working conditions are safe., not mine. Also on  site where my guys are employed there are at times up to 14 safety inspectors., to date I've not had one issue with them.
I realise that this post is probably not what you or others were expecting, but nowadays it seems that there is a culture of blame and compensation claims for sometimes very trivial issues.
In conclusion I would make the following point. It seems your employer is prepared for you to continue working as normal., for you to stir the matter up in order to gain a letter admonishing you of any responsibility, may cause further problems for yourself., but which ever way you go I wish you the best of luck."

#3504-04-2011 15:00:28

Re: @ Flounderbout

Yes and No .....


To the way i understand it a employer MUST ensure that the employee is trained for the task he is required to do and have done a risk assessment and method statment detailing what Must be done to perform the task BUT also the employee must point out when the task is not performed safely or following the perscribed actions

The issues still go back to correct training and instruction from the employer and if  has not ensured that the employees are following procedure he is at fault

#3604-04-2011 15:09:03

Re: @ Flounderbout

Icon - Post link Apache wrote:

The most recent post - an employers perspective. Correct?

"Been reading your thread with interest,I run a plastering company presently working on contract for Olympic venue, in Stratford, employing some 90 guys, percentage PAYE others subcontract gangs.
So my reply is from an employers point of view.
Re H&S, firstly if the person is an employee, then they should have undertaken a H&S course, this is also to be taken every 6 months, the employee is then given a certificate. If the person is a subcontractor then they must have a CSCS card, even before they are contracted., without they cannot be employed.
Re your accident, you state you were footing a ladder, I.e. Making sure that while the operative was working from same the ladder would not slip, ladders are permissible to work from providing care is taken. You don't give any height at which the ladder was resting on the extruding RSJ, why wasn't the ladder tied at the top to the RSJ, to prevent slipping.
It should be considered the operatives responsibility to make sure the work station is safe, not up to the employer to supervise, the working from a ladder.
Another point which I was astounded by is the fact that the operative who was working from the top of the ladder had the forethought to take a camera and actually take a photo looking down from the ladder., this to me shows lack of attention to the work he was carrying out.
If in the opinion of an operative the work situation is not safe, then contact should be made with the relevant person who is in control to make other arrangements. I.e. A cherry picker, or sometimes a tower scaffold., but it is up to the operative to make a decision.
Was the accident referred to the H&S inspectors so they could make an assessment., were suitable reports made to the boss of the company etc., did you fill in an accident report. If this accident was of a serious nature then the H&S should have been informed immediately, not as an after thought.
You state you have no written contract as to the terms of your employment. Why didn't you ask for one.
You say you have no bruising etc, I'm guessing the person who was more injured was the guy working at the top of the ladder.
As to an overall view of the situation from as I said an employers point of view.
Both of you may be considered at fault.
The operative working at the top of the ladder should have made it safe, I.e. By making sure the ladder was tied to the RSJ, yourself for not footing the ladder correctly., if you had been footing the ladder it should not have slipped, this is backed up by the operative working from the top actually taking a photo.
For you to make a recording of any conversation without informing the other party of your intentions is not admissible evidence, and would be disregarded in any future discussions.
As re your being asked to resign or anything similar, this is not appropriate also not necessary. But from an employers point of view, I would certainly issue written warnings.
It is an employees responsibility to make sure that any ladder or platform etc is used in an appropriate manner.
I certainly take all site safety in a most serious manner, I have guys who work from stilts, to gain access to ceilings etc, it is up to them to make sure their equipment and working conditions are safe., not mine. Also on  site where my guys are employed there are at times up to 14 safety inspectors., to date I've not had one issue with them.
I realise that this post is probably not what you or others were expecting, but nowadays it seems that there is a culture of blame and compensation claims for sometimes very trivial issues.
In conclusion I would make the following point. It seems your employer is prepared for you to continue working as normal., for you to stir the matter up in order to gain a letter admonishing you of any responsibility, may cause further problems for yourself., but which ever way you go I wish you the best of luck."
There is obviously a lot that has gone on in the thread that we don't know about, so it is hard to comment.  As for is it correct, what part?  It is plainly wrong that he is not responsible for the actions of his employees, no matter how badly they carry out their jobs.  Nor is it sensible to suggest that a failure to do H&S training is the employees fault - plainly it is the employers responsibility to ensure necessary training is carried out.  As for whose fault it was - who knows?  But is the employer liable?  Almost certainly.  It is bollox by the way to suggest that because you have surreptitiously recorded a conversation it cannot be used as evidence. 
If he is right to say that the kid is kicking up a fuss to try and get a letter absolving him of blame (rather than "admonishing" him!) in circs where he is not going to be fired or have to leave then that does not seem like a wise course of action.  It wouldn't mean anything, and it is just going to cause bad blood.  He should probably let it lie from the sound of things.

#3704-04-2011 15:30:15

Re: @ Flounderbout

Icon - Post link flounderbout wrote:

He should probably let it lie from the sound of things.
That was my thought on it. I'm guessing a deal has been struck with the guy up the ladder, hence the 'What? Nah, know nothing about it' from the company owner that the lad found when he turned up this morning...

#3804-04-2011 16:39:08

Re: @ Flounderbout

I agree.  No point stirring it up if he's not in the firing line. 

As for that long-winded post from the plasterer, I feel his frustration but he is way out thinking that he has no responsibility.  Where I think he's coming from is that he has taken all reasonable steps in ensuring that his staff are properly trained and briefed so would not be in the deep brown if one had an accident, but the point here is that your ladder holding friend had nothing of the sort.
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